I do believe that gender-nonconforming people have a lot to teach us.

Introduction

Today, gender is increasingly understood as a construct open to the interpretation of the individual. A Pantone of possibility rather than a brick-block binary. It is an expansive understanding of personal identity as something that grows from the inside out, rather than a societal mould in which one is cast. Nor need it be fixed. It is a fluid, living thing that grows from us and with us. While there is a new openness about recognising, respecting, and indeed rejoicing in, this liberating spectrum of possibility, such openness is a relatively new state of affairs. Not so long ago, exploring and expressing one’s non-binary psyche was something that must be kept totally hidden or run the risk of public ridicule, ostracism, and physical abuse. And even today, the new freedom of expression is meeting with a vicious backlash from some reactionary quarters.

It was in the context of this necessarily secretive world of non-conformist gender expression that the photographer Mariette Pathy Allen first became aware of men who dressed as women. It was to change the direction of her artmaking and, equally, to change the way male-to-female crossdressers were represented in the USA. Her portraits were a world away from Diane Arbus’ depictions of a freakish ‘other’. With a gentle eye and a deft visual sensibility, she helped each subject find the femininity they sought to express. Their true being.

A cis woman herself, the artist was on her own journey of discovery at a time when discourses around the expansive nature of gender identity were becoming more pressing and more public. She became an unofficial chronicler of the transgender and non-binary community and an activist ally. Her approach remained constant, the caring and sensitive representation of all gender-diverse identities as part of a human continuum to which we all belong. A triumph of self-actualisation over simplistic convention.

It is in her early work especially that Mariette Pathy Allen is revealed as a true visionary. She recognised that to accept one must first understand, and to understand one must first connect. In her portraiture and documentary, she captures the essence of a profound truth. It is not sameness that brings us together but the empathy born of fully embracing the potential of our infinite variety.

Alasdair Foster

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Interview

What first drew you to the subject of gender transformation in your photographic practice?

It was the New Orleans French Quarter – 1978 – when, by a marvellous fluke, my husband and I stayed at the same hotel as a group of crossdressers. On the last day of Mardi Gras, I came down for breakfast and saw some amazing people in ball gowns and heels, wearing wigs and make-up. My husband had gone out earlier (dressed as a jester) and, when they saw that I was alone, they invited me to join them for breakfast. Afterwards, we walked outside where they began parading around the poolside. Later, they lined up while one of the group took photographs. I wondered if it would be okay for me to take pictures too…

As I lifted the camera to my eye and looked through the lens, I saw someone in the middle of the group looking straight back at me. It was an epiphany. I felt I wasn’t looking into the eyes of a man or a woman but at the essence of a human being. As I took that picture, I said to myself: I have to have this person in my life. It turned out that they lived twenty blocks from me in New York City. Vicky West and I became friends.

[Left] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Madeline Victoria’; [Right] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Valerie, at the end of a glamour session’
from the series ‘Transformations: Crossdressers and Those Who Love Them’ 1978–89

How did things develop?

It was through Vicky that I came to know the transgender community. I still have the photograph of that exact moment when my life changed.

Vicky invited me to parties, clubs, and events she enjoyed, including Fantasia Fair, the longest-running annual transgender gathering in the United States. Shortly thereafter, I became the Fair’s ‘official photographer’, and discovered a whole community of people, mostly hidden from mainstream society. Eleven years later, E.P. Dutton published my book, ‘Transformations: Crossdressers and Those Who Love Them’.

It’s a remarkable book. What was it you wanted to bring out in these images and stories?

It was the first depiction in print of crossdressers as relatable, living their daily lives. I wanted to remove the shock factor.

[Left] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Vanessa in a fur jacket’; [Right] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Tom as Carol’
from the series ‘Transformations: Crossdressers and Those Who Love Them’ 1978–89

When I began the work, I learned that crossdressers grew up frightened about themselves. Many thought they were the only ones in the world who felt the way they did. Some thought they were insane. Terrified of being discovered, they kept their secret from their spouses, children, and other family members. In the media, gender-variant people were depicted as freaks: evil, dangerous paedophiles, or just crazy people. They were usually photographed alone, mostly at night, always depicted as the ‘other’, never as acceptable, loveable people. A lot of media coverage focused on shock value, taking pleasure in outing gender non-conformists.

I discovered pretty early on that I could make a difference in the lives of crossdressers and their families through photography. That realisation gave me a new sense of purpose and much joy. And, personally, the sudden dropping away of the binary gave me an exhilarating feeling of liberation; of the naturalness of seeing sex and gender as a continuum.

How did they self-identify?

Although many people were unsure about how to identify themselves in the eighties, there was also a lot of rigidity among the people with whom I spent most of my time. They wanted to see themselves as heterosexual crossdressers. There was an organisation called Tri-Ess, which stood for the Society for the Second Self. Homosexuals and transsexuals were forbidden to join. The greatest fear for the wives and female partners of male-to-female crossdressers was that their husbands were homosexuals – that they wanted to look good to attract the attention of men. Or that they would transition and the women would then be seen as lesbians. Tri-Ess was meant to reassure wives and partners and keep everyone safe.

[Left] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Sherry’ [Right]; © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Davida and Diane – couple’
from the series ‘Transformations: Crossdressers and Those Who Love Them’ 1978–89

One of the most radical aspects of this early work was its refusal to sensationalise. How did you go about creating these warmly intimate portraits, many of which include the family?

‘Transformations’ did a lot of good for a lot of people. It was the book that they had always wanted because, before this, the only depictions of gender-variance were in porn shops or pathologised in scientific journals. My intention was that gender-expansive people should feel comfortable looking at their pictures and for them to feel comfortable showing their pictures to others. When possible, I tried to include loved ones: parents, wives, and children in the photographs. That made a huge difference. I’ve been told that the book saved marriages and that it even kept some people from committing suicide.

I understood that this was a considerable responsibility. I had a good reputation as someone who was on their side. I was nonthreatening. I spent time visiting. And I think they liked the fact that I was a woman.

[Left] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Felicity – then and now’; [Right] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Paula and Daughter, Rachel’
from the series ‘Transformations: Crossdressers and Those Who Love Them’ 1978–89

Felicity Chandelle [above left] was a pilot who knew the Wright brothers. This photograph was taken in the living room of her house. The photograph on the wall was taken by the father of little John and his mother, who had put a ribbon in his hair and dressed him in the clothes of a little girl who lived across the street. When he was a teenager, John discovered the photographs from that day, and he felt so much pleasure that he started to cross-dress. John/Felicity married twice, both times to doctors who accepted his crossdressing.

And this [above right] is a portrait of Paula and her daughter, Rachel. I received a letter from Paul asking if crossdressers had to be heterosexual to be in the book because he wasn’t. Paul had been in the Navy but lost his job when they found out he was gay. Although he and his ex-wife had a good relationship, he realised when he was twenty-nine that he was gay. This was after his daughter was born. Paul and Rachel had a strong bond that grew stronger when Paula told her about the crossdressing.

How was the work received at the time?

The book was received with joy and relief by the trans community. It was the book that many people used to tell their family and friends who they were. However, it got little respect from the art world. Galleries thought the subject was too limited, and I think they wanted more sensationalism in the images. Television show hosts tended to ask intentionally naive or biased questions and didn’t give me time to answer properly. Mostly they wanted academics or therapists to comment on the subject. Magazines and newspapers varied in their response from hateful to questioning. The New York Post skewered a grant I received from the NYSCA [New York State Council on the Arts], with daily headlines about four grants they considered ridiculous. One read: Tax Dollars Going for Men in Drag.

[Left] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Cori and Max – reversed couple, Atlanta’; [Right] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Jamison at Fantasia Fair’
from the series ‘The Gender Frontier’ 1990–2003

Made more than a decade later, your series ‘The Gender Frontier’ looks beyond temporary cross-dressing to people who live full-time in the gender with which they identify. How did that expanded view come about?

It was time to photograph female-to-males and other gender-variant people. Maxwell Anderson, a leader in the trans-masculine community invited me to sit at their table and go to their seminars at the Southern Comfort conference. As a result, I experienced a very different world. Max invited me to Pompano Beach to visit him, his partner, and his best friend, Robert. Max and Jake started their relationship as a lesbian couple in the Midwest. They moved to Florida to get away from anyone who knew them. After a while, Peggy Sue transitioned to Maxwell so together they looked like a heterosexual couple. Then, sometime later, Max’s girlfriend decided she needed to transition too, and transitioned to Jake. Now they were a gay male couple.

I stayed with their friend Robert, a charming transman who became the subject of the film ‘Southern Comfort’ seven years later when he died from ovarian cancer. The disease progressed quickly because he couldn’t find a doctor in Atlanta who would take him on. The doctors felt that their female patients would be uncomfortable seeing a man in the waiting room.

[Left] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Young Couple at a GenderPAC gathering, Washington DC’
[Right] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Brandon Teena Should Have Been Here – Gay Pride Parade, New York City’
from the series ‘The Gender Frontier’ 1990–2003

How was the social context changing at the time?

This political issue joined many others in the nineties. I joined a group of transpeople who were campaigning to change attitudes in the medical and legal professions, and in wider society. There were vigils for murdered transwomen, and demonstrations. We leafletted hospitals and medical conventions lobbying to change the classification of transpeople in the DSM [The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in the USA]. We held vigils to try to stop surgeons from operating on intersex babies. Conferences began to include sessions run by community activists.

I participated in many political events, traveling all over the country, and taking photographs. It was a very exciting, intense time. The movement towards greater understanding and acceptance of transgender and non-binary people was moving forward and we could feel that we were making it happen. Most of the organisers of political events were transmen and transwomen rather than crossdressers. Many put their lives on the line, knowing how much they could lose.

What did you want to achieve personally through your photography?

My goal was always to make the people I photographed relatable to themselves and to the outside world. And I understood that I was preserving history while also being a part of it. I wanted to elicit feelings of respect and appreciation from the cis world and, among the gender-expansive community, feelings of connectedness, inclusion, and mutual appreciation.

[Left] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Marval and Jacob giving all the wrong impressions, Los Angeles’ 2021
[Right] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Nathan and Jaydena, at home, Paris’ 2022
from the series ‘Gender Expanded’ 2009–2023

How did the series ‘Gender Expanded’ come about?

It continues on from ‘The Gender Frontier’ as I followed the evolution of the movement towards freedom of expression for gender-expansive people. Once the internet was available, trans and non-binary people had the opportunity to find each other and get the information they needed. They were further emboldened to come out and be who they felt themselves to be. As a result, the conferences gradually faded away or changed focus. At the same time, the community has become more sophisticated in taking photographs themselves and my work isn’t needed as much as it once was. So, while I continue to follow events, my portraits are now made for my art practice as much as for the people I portray.

[Left] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘John, Seattle’ 2021
[Right] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Transmen with a seventeen-year-old transwoman at the Southern Comfort Conference, Atlanta, Georgia’ 2012
from the series ‘Gender Expanded’

I was struck by these two portraits…

This is John [above left], a librarian in Seattle, who I photographed in 2021. He likes to swim and found a secluded place to do so. I was drawn to John’s calm presence and the ease of his gentle masculinity and I was moved by the opportunity to photograph him. The natural surroundings combined with his striking appearance were a joy.

This gathering [above right] took place in 2012, at the Southern Comfort Conference in Atlanta. The pretty seventeen-year-old transgirl is surrounded by young transmen. It struck me that this situation mirrored the cis world!

How do you see the gender-expansive situation today?

Right now, we’re suffering from an intense backlash against the progress that was being made in the understanding of gender identity and expression. Some people think this backlash comes from the fear of change in role models. I think it’s also fear related to the body. To me, the fight against the right to abort and the fear of transpeople who change their bodies feel intertwined.

I have the opposite fear, which is that the work done by so many people could be lost as we’re thrown back to the days of ignorance and cruelty. I have never thought that gender variance was a narrow subject. I think it refers to all of us, at any time. The questions about identity may seem to be simpler for those of us who are cisgender, but as time goes on and rigid gender roles continue to loosen, we might all be dealing pretty equally with those little internal voices asking: Who are you, anyway?

[Left] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Joan, at home, Houston, Texas’ 2021
[Right] © Mariette Pathy Allen ‘Kim and Cris with their adopted daughter at Southern Comfort, Atlanta, Georgia’ 2010
from the series ‘Gender Expanded’

What have you learned about yourself in the process of making this work?

I found that I am much more capable than I had previously thought. I lost my extreme shyness when I realised that my work wasn’t just about me as an artist but, rather, I was a conduit through which change could happen. I learned how to put slide presentations together and became more confident speaking to an audience.

I learned a lot about making portraits. When I began, I was photographing men who had no idea how to present themselves to the camera. I helped them understand how to occupy space, let go of symmetry, make shapes… connect with their inner femininity. I had to learn about make-up and wigs and helped choose which clothes would work best for a given shot.

And in the process, I learned a great deal about the lives of men. I met firefighters, CEOs, scientists, politicians, police officers, lawyers, doctors, military personnel… In their vulnerability, they told me their stories. I heard a lot about marriages and tragic breakups, and people too awkward to find a partner. I am so grateful to learn about, and even be included in lives that are for the most part very different from my own. Over the years, through the gender-expansive world, I have witnessed tragedy and loneliness, hilarity and anger, but also so much friendship and love. I believe that gender-nonconforming people have a lot to teach us.

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Her photography has been featured in twenty-five solo and over thirty-five group exhibitions in Austria, Belgium, China, Cuba, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, and across the USA. Her photographs are held in many prestigious public and private collections including, in the USA, The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York; The Museum of Modern Art, New York; the National Gallery of Art, Washington DC; the New York Public Library; George Eastman House, Rochester, NY; the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, TX; and overseas in the Bibliothéque Nationale, Paris, France; the Musée de la Photographie, Charleroi, Belgium; the Museum of Photography, Lishui, China; and the Reiss-Engelhorn Museum, Frankfurt, Germany. Mariette Pathy Allen has published four monographs: ‘Transformations: Crossdressers and Those Who Love Them’ (E.P. Dutton Inc. 1989); ‘The Gender Frontier’ (Kehrer Verlag 2004), which won the 2004 Lambda Literary Award; ‘TransCuba’ (Daylight Books 2014); and ‘Transcendents: Spirit Mediums in Burma and Thailand’ (Daylight Books 2017). Her life’s work is being archived by the Duke University Library Archive of Documentary Arts, Durham, North Carolina. She lives and works in New York City.

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This interview is a Talking Pictures original.

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